Curse

MithranArkanere · Aug 15, 2008, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

And this matters because?

Tomes do not drop in normal mode.

Yawgmoth · Aug 15, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Tomes do not drop in normal mode.

So what?
They drop in HM and from Zaishen Chest, but it doesn't fkin matter. They're common trade goods, they're traded in large quantities and they deserve an improved trading solution, like a trader npc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

And any elite tome should be customized when found.

Seriously, go make a separate thread with this as an update suggestion. Such a fantastic idea would certainly be loved by everyone with passion.

MithranArkanere · Aug 15, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Although you understanding it would mke thing easier, it is not required.

Tomes are a hard mode only drop.

They are a reward fro playing hard mode. After getting them, you can do whatever you like with them.
But they are not a commodity. They are not like upgrades or scrolls.
They are a BONUS. Something extra you get for doing something especial.

There are no traders for Hero armor pieces, Weapons, trophies, festival tokens, miniatures...

For those we need the Xunlai Marketplace, but NOT a trader.

The ONLY trader left is the Weapon upgrade trader. NO ONE ELSE.

You can try harder to understad why or not, but it doesn't matter. That's how it is.

Tender Wolf · Aug 16, 2008, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Hmm...well I do see your point and I hate going into HM but I find it better to just buy tomes using the forums right here. Just post in the Buy section in Ventari's Corner and you'll definately get a seller. I've seen too many people QQ about HM and how it's too easy, this will just increase that. The one thing about tomes is that they are unique to HM so they shouldn't be allowed to just purchase from a trader like a rare material. And the overpriced thing? Forget it, several things in the game are too expensive already. Blegh.

daze · Aug 16, 2008, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Id give up the fight. some people are just so one sided that they can not even begin to se another persons point of view.

Luminarus · Aug 16, 2008, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Tomes are NOT difficult to get, elite tomes arent either. Any noob with a net connection can open up PVX wiki, get a permaform build, and go farm any elite tome.

As well as this there are a myriad of builds that kill mobs in NM. 600/Smite CoF runs result in tome drops etc. Hell, tomes drop more then Dyes & Runes. Why where these traders added in, as you could get them from people... oh thats right to make it EASIER to get them, so if you're willing to spend the little bit extra, then you save time. Remember the trader DOES NOT make items cheaper. The value of these tomes is already set by how much they are wanted, and how many there are. Giving them an outlet wont kill the price, itll just make it easier to dump them.

All you people complaining it will kill HM & kill the point of the skill trainer:
a) HM is NOT about tomes. If you're doing HM you will get tomes, but its there for the CHALLENGE of it.
b) The skill trainer is already dead. If you're patient its worth buying tomes to get the skill. A normal tome should NEVER be worth more then 1k. This is because to use a tome the skill must be unlocked. An unlocked skill can be bought at any trainer in that skill's campaign for 1k. Therefore anyone buying tomes for over 1k is an idiot.
c) Elite tomes are still gonna be worth the same. People who need a skill fast will buy them, people who feel they are too much will still buy a cap sig and buy it the old fashioned way. There is no reason not to have a tome trader. It will also provide a gold sink in that they could charge 50-100k to have one in the GH, like with rune traders etc. Also tomes already mostly removed the gold sink of skill trainers, along with hero skill trainers.

I dont think this will damage GW in any way, but I personally dont really find a benefit for it. Ill still use all my normal tomes, and sell all my elite tomes.

/signed

Yawgmoth · Aug 16, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Although you understanding it would mke thing easier, it is not required.

Tomes are a hard mode only drop.

They are a reward fro playing hard mode. After getting them, you can do whatever you like with them.
But they are not a commodity. They are not like upgrades or scrolls.
They are a BONUS. Something extra you get for doing something especial.

There are no traders for Hero armor pieces, Weapons, trophies, festival tokens, miniatures...

For those we need the Xunlai Marketplace, but NOT a trader.

The ONLY trader left is the Weapon upgrade trader. NO ONE ELSE.

You can try harder to understad why or not, but it doesn't matter. That's how it is.

You're making stuff up for no reason.

Tomes ARE a common trade'able commodity. Just like weapon upgrades or scrolls. The fact they drop only in Hard Mode and Zaishen Chest doesn't change anything.

Celestial Sigils drop only from HoH chest but they are a commodity and got a trader.
Lightbringer Scrolls can only be obtained in DoA, yet you can sell them to trader and a newbie with only Prophecies can buy them from trader in LA. Is that a problem? No. It's just free market, and an NPC making trading faster, easier.

Tomes are not different.
They're just relatively new and some people apparently didn't get used to thinking of them as a core part of the game.

And Tomes deserve a trader much more than weapon upgrades or inscriptions, those would much better be traded through a Xunlai Marketplace-like solution.
That's because Tomes are always the same, only 20 types, they're heavily traded items, always in demand, often traded in large quantities. As opposed to weapon mods, with a lot more different types and large variety in ranges, with only very few of them being in demand.

MithranArkanere · Aug 16, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Weapon and trophies can also be trader, but do not and will not have traders.
Trophies like the Ansguis gems are also always the same.
Same goes for hero armor.

As I said, you don't seem to understand. They are not like lockpicks, dyes, runes or scrolls.
They are not expendables that can be used infinite times.
Once you have all skills, there are is no reason to get more tomes.
Once you get complete equipment, you may have to get more upgrades later.
Once you max the titles, you may still keep using lockpicks.
Even if you need no more skill points nor exp, you may still keep earning experience to get consumables.
No matter how many times you have entered the core and factions elite areas, you may want to enter later.
No mater how many times you die an item, you may still dye it again later.

Tomes are not the same. Once you know all skills, they have no use for you. They have value: 0 and will never have a trader.

You can make your mid up, but that doesn't change the facts and the design behind the tomes. As I said, the only thing left for you is understand it. You may or may not, but that will not change a thing. As they say in japanese: muri desu.

Even a trader for Tonics would make more sense that this.

Yawgmoth · Aug 16, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Skill Tomes are the first and most obvious choice for a common commodity that deserves a trader right now.

The demand for tomes is close to infinite - you can reroll characters over and over and learn skills again just as you can dye the same item over and over.
Even without the extreme behavior there's one thing we can be completely sure of - the demand for tomes will remain high and they will keep being wanted and traded no matter what.

The sheer volume of tome trades is also beyond other commodities. There are no other standardized mass goods that are both traded in such a large scale and where having a trader would really benefit both buyers and sellers so much.

For most other goods that don't have a trader yet there are solid reasons against them. For tomes there are none.

For some unknown reason you WANT to think tomes are different and not accept the reality. No idea why.

So many posts and you still haven't provided any reasonable argument, anything that would prove Tomes are different where they are not, and any single good reason a straight trading improvement in the form of a trader npc for Tomes would be bad. Try harder or admit your failure.

Raul the Rampant · Aug 16, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

The skill trainer is already a tome seller... the only difference is that he does the double clicking for you. That in itself saves you time, which seems to be what you want anyway.

And selling to a tome trader would take longer anyway. Say you have 20 tomes to sell. You could go through and request a quote 20 times and then accept that each of those 20 times, or you could go to a major hub (which is where the tome trader would be placed anyway), spend 4 seconds advertising in the trade channel and sell all 20 at once. Again, the trader only makes things take longer, which is exactly what you don't want

MithranArkanere · Aug 16, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Skill Tomes are the first and most obvious choice for a common commodity that deserves a trader right now.

The demand for tomes is close to infinite - you can reroll characters over and over and learn skills again just as you can dye the same item over and over.
Even without the extreme behavior there's one thing we can be completely sure of - the demand for tomes will remain high and they will keep being wanted and traded no matter what.

The sheer volume of tome trades is also beyond other commodities. There are no other standardized mass goods that are both traded in such a large scale and where having a trader would really benefit both buyers and sellers so much.

For most other goods that don't have a trader yet there are solid reasons against them. For tomes there are none.

For some unknown reason you WANT to think tomes are different and not accept the reality. No idea why.

So many posts and you still haven't provided any reasonable argument, anything that would prove Tomes are different where they are not, and any single good reason a straight trading improvement in the form of a trader npc for Tomes would be bad. Try harder or admit your failure.

No. Weapon upgrade traders is the only one left.
PvP-only accounts can't easily get upgrades for items like Zaishen chest rewards.
That's the main reason for the need of a weapon upgrade trader.
But Tomes?
They are useless for PvP characters, and PvE characters can get skills easily in trainers.
The only thing left would be the Elite tomes, and there is no need to turn Skill Hunter in a farm-10-hours-then-buy-in-1-minutes title rank.

Tomes are an alternate way to get skills, a bonus that requires no skill points.
They are not THE way to get the skills, they are an extra way to get them, like Hero Skill points.
Tomes are a bonus item with no merchant value that can be found only in Hard Mode (and the Zaishen Chest).
For some unknown reason you WANT to think tomes are different and not accept the reality. Probably you want to buy them faster without having to spam in towns.

But, as I said, for that we need the Xunlai Marketplace, NOT a trader.
The only trader missing left is the weapon upgrade trader.

無理です

joshuarodger · Aug 16, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

i would much rather have a weapon upgrade trader than a tome trader. after a skill is unlocked, anyone character on that account can purchase that skill from any skill trainer in that campaign. it's impossible to do that with weapon upgrades. if you don't already have it, you have to spend time trying to find it. and in my opinion it shouldn't be easy to learn elite skills. they're elite for a reason. (most of them anyway)

the solid reason for not having a tome trader is that it isn't necessary because all unlocked skills are already available to all characters on that account for the cost of a skill point and up to 1000g. the only time it costs your character to learn an unlocked skill is the time it takes to get from one campaign to another. tome traders are not as beneficial to the formation of characters as a weapon upgrade trader would be.

Barrett · Aug 16, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

making a trader would ruin the point of tomes
and make them basicly into a skill trainer that teaches u anything that you've got unlocked via hero skills/other character/priest of baltz
we could just say make skill trainers teach all unlocked skills

And if elite tomes were sold why not just remove cap sigs and give us 1baltz point per every 10enemys killed

i like that you are trying to contribute but this is a bad idea

Yawgmoth · Aug 16, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Omfg, people, think before posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

No. Weapon upgrade traders is the only one left.

Weapon upgrade trader is not the subject of this thread. It's a far far more complicated case, a standard trader npc for mods is a wrong way to do it. Mods should be sold through a Xunlai Marketplace-like thing instead, for many reasons.

Quote:

PvP-only accounts can't easily get upgrades for items like Zaishen chest rewards.
That's the main reason for the need of a weapon upgrade trader.
But Tomes?
They are useless for PvP characters, and PvE characters can get skills easily in trainers.

Oh, those few PvP-only accounts are screwed anyway when it comes to trading.
They can't easily sell items they get from Zaishen or HoH chest, including, for crying out loud, tons of random Skill Tomes they get but can't use.

Quote:

The only thing left would be the Elite tomes, and there is no need to turn Skill Hunter in a farm-10-hours-then-buy-in-1-minutes title rank.

Legendary Skill Hunter is already an entirely buyable title - Trader wouldn't change anything in this matter.
Oh, and talking about farming, skill tomes are totally farmable drops - you don't need a single trade or a single use of Cap Sig to max this title!
Next time think more before posting bs.

Quote:

Tomes are an alternate way to get skills, a bonus that requires no skill points.
They are not THE way to get the skills, they are an extra way to get them, like Hero Skill points.
Tomes are a bonus item with no merchant value that can be found only in Hard Mode (and the Zaishen Chest).
For some unknown reason you WANT to think tomes are different and not accept the reality. Probably you want to buy them faster without having to spam in towns.

You need to accept that they already are a viable alternative way of obtaining skills, in many cases the most efficient way. It's the way based on a free market. And all the trader would do is helping to speed up the market.

They aren't some sort of a mysterious 'bonus item' disguised in a form of standard common tradeable commodity you keep thinking they are. Don't try to make up bs to hide the truth, for most players they ARE the number 1 way of getting skills.

And my personal reason I really want this thing is not buying but selling, to save time and storage... although an occassional quick buy would be great aswell.

Quote:

But, as I said, for that we need the Xunlai Marketplace, NOT a trader.

fail at understanding of most basic stuff.
Xunlai Marketplace should be used for single rare items, not for standardized stackable mass goods, traded in bulk, like materials or tomes. Do you even understand the difference between it and a trader npc? You keep getting it mixed up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrett

making a trader would ruin the point of tomes
and make them basicly into a skill trainer that teaches u anything that you've got unlocked via hero skills/other character/priest of baltz

Wrong. You fail to realise that all the trader would do is provide an option of cutting time normally wasted on WTS or WTB spamming at the cost of him being a gold sink (difference between buy and sell prices), which is also a positive change - the existance of tomes greatly reduced the gold sink effect of skill trainers
...oh, and I forgot to mention saving us some storage space random single unwanted tomes take (in my case it's usually 6-12 slots taken by tomes I don't have time to WTS)

Quote:

we could just say make skill trainers teach all unlocked skills

they already do that.

Quote:

And if elite tomes were sold why not just remove cap sigs and give us 1baltz point per every 10enemys killed

Elite tomes are already in the game and are heavily traded between people. That fact didn't remove the viability of traditional skill capping - they're pretty expensive. Trader wouldn't make them cheaper - in fact trader selling price would be even higher than average market price.

Raul the Rampant · Aug 17, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

... in fact trader selling price would be even higher than average market price.

Correct. The price for tomes would settle at exactly 1k each. 1k as in the cost of a skill from the already existent skill trainer (I realize skills initially cost less, but seriously, is anyone going to get a max character with every skill for every profession without buying 19 skills or cap sigs? No, it's simply not fiscally intelligtent.). As long as tomes were less than 1k people would buy them from the trader. However, as more people buy, the price would go up (as basic supply and demand as you can possibly get). The price would rise like this until it reached at least 1k... at this point there would be no purpose in purchasing skills via a tome trader as it becomes easier and faster to use a skill trainer, since tomes only allow you to get skills you've already unlocked (just like a skill trainer). If for whatever reason the cost of a tome exceeded 1k, well, as someone else has already stated, only a moron would actually choose to buy one.

Similarly, selling tomes to a trader would be equally pointless. Go to any trader already in existence (perhaps a materials one) and you'll see that the quoted price for selling is much much lower than the purchase cost that will be quoted. As in any other case, people would sell at a point somewhere below the purchase price and above the sell price. While there would be disparities in the sell (to the trader) values of the professions (assassin and warriors being lowest, with the caster ones being progressively higher) people would still split the difference. The resulting values for person to person trade would be quite close (if not exactly) what the generally accepted prices would be as they stand today (check the pc forums here if you don't already know them for whatever reason).

In short, it wouldn't make sense to sell them for very low prices to the trader when you could easily sell them for substantially more to other players with minimal effort; It similarly would not be justifiable to add a tome trader to the game when the purchase (from the trader) value would undoubtedly settle at the already established prices set at the already established skill trainers. Besides, as I already pointed out a few posts ago, the concept of saving time really doesn't work out either.

daze · Aug 18, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

For most other goods that don't have a trader yet there are solid reasons against them. For tomes there are none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The only thing left would be the Elite tomes, and there is no need to turn Skill Hunter in a farm-10-hours-then-buy-in-1-minutes title rank.

Mithran your whole post was a great example of why the bad idea for an elite tome trader is a bad idea, but this is (in my opinion) the best example. And it shows how Yawmouth is incapable of looking beneath the surface so i would just give up. He is set on countering any valid arguments with insults and disrespect.
Yes, Elite tomes can still be bought and Legendary skill hunter (among most other titles) can be fully purchased(with the correct amount of funds). But the difference is being able to buy 290 elite tomes within a 5 minute period as opposed to Trying to find 290 elite tomes from players which would take much, much, much, much, much longer. (Hey i just got Legendary skill title in under 10 minutes from first skill to last! Next nerfed legendary skill will have me doing Dwarven boxing for 10 hours. wOOt!)
The bad idea is a bad idea still. Frankly I'm surprised that this thread is still going. Its like you are trying to prove something to someone who is wearing blinders.

I am curious if ANet places certain skills in certain locations for a reason. Or is it just random? Why place end game skills at the end of the game? This really doesn't require much thinking. But i already know your argument to this. (They can just be bought from other players anyways) As can EVERY other item in the game. Sofa king what.

MithranArkanere · Aug 18, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Anyone that agrees with such a thing, would agree with a trader for Stars of Transference.
And agreeing with stars of transference would also be an agreement for all the other consumables.

Just because people already trade with them does not mean that it should have a trader.

The items that have traders are:
- EXPENDABLE ITEMS WITH NO VARIABLE PROPERTIES THAT ARE NOT SOLD BY MERCHANTS AND CAN BE FOUND MOSTLY AS HOSTILE NPC DROPS IN BOTH NORMAL AND HARD MODE. AND WHICH CAN BE USED INDEFINITELY BY EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER.

Runes? You can salvage and put as many runes in the armors you have as you want. Sell them and get others.
Dyes? You can dye any dyable item as many times as you want. Gray dyes do not appear in traders because they can be bought in merchants.
Materials and Rare Materials? You can make as many items with them as you want. You can get them in artisans, but artisans are NOT merchants.
Scrolls? You can use them again and again indefinitely. Scrolls that appear in merchant DO NOT appear in traders.
Sigils? You can disband and make as many guilds as you want.

But...
Lockpicks? They can be bought in merchants.
Tomes? Once you have all skills they are useles for a character and you must sell them, use them in other characters or give them away. They also drop only in hard mode.
Consumables? They are "standarized stackable stuff", but they do NOT drop from monsters.
Trophies? They are not expendable, they are tokens exchanged in collectors.
Miniatures? Do I need to explain this one?
Weapons? They have variable properties.
Weapon upgrades? The variable properties they have are the reason they do not have a trader, and something to be fixed, by the way.
Alcohol? Bought in merchants.
Sweets? Bought in merchants.
Party items? Hey, they fit the description, but since there are a bit pointless and the only ones usefull in PvE, alchohol for PvE skills, can be bough from merchants, there's no need for a trader. And they will probably be sold in merchants too, sooner or later, probably Factions merchants.

And, to put it simply: A tome trader would be much like a skill point vending machine.

Painbringer · Aug 18, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

why not more skills learned right off the bat the better

daze · Aug 18, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Tomes? Once you have all skills they are useles for a character and you must sell them, use them in other characters or give them away. They also drop only in hard mode.
And, to put it simply: A tome trader would be much like a skill point vending machine.

You should probably mention that they drop from ZChests and HM only or risk getting called stupid by yagmouth.

I would much rather having a four-leaf-clover trader or candy cane trader than an Elite tome trader anyways.

furanshisuko · Aug 18, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

weapon mod trader, would be better :P
i hate looking for inscription's or for +30's for over an hour